Wednesday, June 6, 2012

Always Be Closing

A faculty member at an elite law school has forwarded me an email the entire faculty received earlier this week.  The email explains that, because of a combination of all the bad news about law school graduate employment prospects and the improving employment prospects in other fields [???], this has turned into an unusually competitive year for law schools in their attempts to get prospective students to enroll.

In these circumstances, the faculty are told, a phone call or even a short email from a faculty member to an admitted student could make a big difference, even if the faculty member has nothing to say beyond this school is great and I'm happy to answer questions.  Faculty who want to pitch in will be given a list of admitted students to contact.

Although I'm not at liberty to disclose the identity of the school it's a place that 96.738% of law school applicants would have loved to get into before David Segal et. al. started harshing legal academia's mellow, and where the faculty are paid stupendous sums (I have seen their compensation structure) to teach 2.27 classes per year and tell the Supreme Court what to do.  Even by legal academic standards it's a particularly sweet gig, so from the standpoint of pure self-interest the recipients of this email ought to bestir themselves and get on the phone or at least the computer.

Remember, coffee is for closers.

But seriously, what are the faculty supposed to say to the people they contact? If these prospective students are at all "sophisticated consumers" of information about higher education, it should send up some warning flags that the faculty of this top law school are actually imploring them in person to attend Our Great School.

Furthermore, there's the potentially embarrassing detail that the vast majority of law faculty know little or nothing about any of the things they would have to know to answer the most important questions 0Ls who have a clue will want answered.   These questions will not include "does the law school feature a collegial atmosphere?" or "how good is your international sports law program?"  They will include "how do the career prospects of this school's recent graduates compare to those of these three competitor schools I'm also considering?" and "do you have any real basis for claiming that paying what you're asking me to pay to go to this school makes sense for me, given my opportunity costs and reasons for considering law school (neither of which you know anything about)" and "can I haz some more money plz?"

So kids, if you get a call or email like this, remember: when The Robert M. Owen and Patricia Calder-Johnson Professor of Commercial Human Rights Law is asking you what he has to do to put you in a new law school today, he's pitching you, just like that polite well-dressed fellow down at the Hyundai dealership.  With one key difference: when you leave the dealership, you'll actually have a car.

124 comments:

  1. I feel dumb, but what does this sentence mean?

    "David Segal et. al. started harshing legal academia's mellow"

    Just a smarter way of saying that he rained on their parade?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Law schools market and recruit. You would too if each student meant $180,000 in revenue.

    Students, know this. Congress and the President think it wise to loan you $180,000 (or more!) in student debt to go to any school you want for any degree you want. Isn't that great! And here's the thing, for 3 years it is fake money.

    But when you get your diploma the clock strikes twelve, and it converts into REAL money that MUST BE REPAID -- either in full, or in a prolonged indenture.

    How much money is $180,000? Well, it is approximately 4 times the median household income in the United States -- one of the five wealthiest countries on earth.

    "Well, anonymous, what else can i do?" I say, man up and kick ass. Go do something with your life that you're good at and that you enjoy and that someone will pay you something to do. It may be small money for the first 7 or 8 years, but eventually you'll make a living. And you might actually be happy in your life.

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  3. What a bunch of assholes. The public puts trust in these institutions and they use that trust to sell you shit you don't need. Not only do ya not need it, but it can be harmful.

    I wish I knew then what I know now. The good news is, my children will know the truth. The bad news is that I will not be able to afford to send them anywhere.

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  4. "With one key difference: when you leave the dealership, you'll actually have a car."

    And another key difference, prof. When you leave the dealership, you are protected if you bought a lemon.

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  5. someone please name and shame this school.

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  6. Do their graduates get jobs?

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  7. I'm guessing Northwestern.

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  8. Students that just finished their 1L year at lower-ranked schools need to get on the transfer wagon now, assuming they don't currently have scholarships or giving up the scholarship and paying for 2 years at a top school would be worth it relative to their chances at their current school.

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  9. Law Prof,

    I want to go to school with a diverse student body and someday be an international environmental art lawyer. You know, a lawyer who focuses on legal issues important to international environmental artists.

    A few law schools are top rated for diversity. Others are top rated for environmental law. While others are tops for international law. All of them seem to really focus on one-on-one attention and skills development that will help me throughout my career, and beyond. They seem expensive, but with all the money I'll be making in the environmental art world, I should be able to pay it off in a couple of years, unless I go the nonprofit route and work for this environmental artist collective in Belgium that advocates for the rights of environmental artists, including at The Hague.

    What's a budding international environmental artist to do? I don't like the idea of being a lawyer, but going to one of these schools that are tops in their specialties will allow me to get a foot in the door in this field that is very important to me.

    Thanks for the help, and good luck to all the other law students who want to go to whatever specialty they're going into!

    ReplyDelete
  10. ^This above comment is a joke right?

    ReplyDelete
  11. lawprof wrote:
    "Although I'm not at liberty to disclose the identity of the school it's a place that 96.738% of law school applicants would have loved to get into before David Segal et. al. started harshing legal academia's mellow...."


    Yep, and we all owe mr segal some kudos for what he did. He really kicked this whole exposing the law school scam thing into high gear.

    you wrote:
    "so from the standpoint of pure self-interest the recipients of this email ought to bestir themselves and get on the phone or at least the computer.


    "Bestir themselves"....dude, you are the f*cking MAN!

    ReplyDelete
  12. Lawprof:

    In light of the white trash in Wisconsin re-affirming their suit wearing, public employee attacking, tenure threatening, dildo of a Governor, could you offer a post about the ways in which tenure facilitated your ability to provide a fantastic (and very valuable) critique of a powerful institution? Seems like folks are forgetting about the benefits of tenure these days....

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  13. I understand that Mamet originally wanted what became "Glengarry Glen Ross" to focus on a law school admissions committee instead of realtors, but he just found the committee too unsympathetic for audiences.

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  14. 7:11:

    You are kidding right? If cutting off the overpaid, underworked, incompetent state worker (excluding cops) pensions results in a balanced state budget, I am all for it. If that makes the governor there a dildo, I would take it over a parasite any day.

    The entrenched unions are a huge problem nationally and I think justice was done yesterday. Now...if they can only get the ball rolling in CA....you know, the 8th largest economy on the planet....the one that is ranked dead last in business climate, 16 billion in the whole, 11% unemployment.

    Before you start calling me a Republican, I fully agree that businesses like Apple should pay their fair share of taxes:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/business/apples-tax-strategy-aims-at-low-tax-states-and-nations.html?pagewanted=all

    Oh...and if you are going to use the term "white trash" so openly, maybe other people should use slurs.

    What do you think, asshole?

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  15. To the Professor:

    I'm not a lawyer so can you explain this legal matter to me: The FTC recently fined Sketchers Shoes for making claims about their shoes which could not be substabtiated. The FTC is mixing it up with POM Beverages about claims which apparently can not be substantiated.

    How can law schools go about making unsubstantiated claims about employment? The only answer I can think of is that the usual and ordinary rules don't apply to law schools.

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  16. Man, this thread got ugly fast. So unnecessary.

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  17. 7:11


    Attacking state employees is great if you don't rely on a state employee to put food on the table, asshole. Let's not go the other route and raise revenue, brah. Let's not tax the rich, brah.

    Clown.

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  18. 7:11

    We're already tied with China:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

    Let's try to make it worse, brah, and continue to attack anyone who makes money that isn't rich. Let's balance the budget that way, brah.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States

    What's that you say, brah? We used to tax the rich over 60% in the top bracket, even under Republicans? Wow. What a novel idea, brah.

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  19. I hate that the scam blog people think that they’re soooo different from anyone else scammed by the business of education. Law school is just a specialized school. Just like undergrads who graduate without work experience and can’t find jobs, law school grads are no different. You were never promised a job. The employment stats are just there to give people an idea, to lure people in like any other business- of course businesses are going to slant and distort stats. The fact that law student were caught by surprise is just funny.

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  20. "Even by legal academic standards it's a particularly sweet gig..."

    Eight hour work week and summers off. Do they average 150K? 160K? more? Paid sabbaticals? Whopping pensions?

    And most of these alleged law teachers don't know the difference between a courtroom and a faculty lounge. Even their scholarship is not peer-reviewed.

    Most law professors should be replaced with adjunct practitioners, paid by the course. It would bring tuition way down and also allow the kids to learn some nuts-and-bolts law.

    ReplyDelete
  21. 7:20, 7:37, 7:42: The often thoughtful comments considerably add to this blog's appeal. By posting your exclusively ego-enhancing rants, you are driving readers away. LawProf has a very liberal comment policy. Please do not abuse it.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Name and shame sounds like a wonderful idea. A professor with integrity must exist at Law School X.

    Screen shot the email; dummy a gmail account; and send it to abovethelaw.com. Have some stones.

    Also, in re Michigan, Oh, look. A fist fight on the deck of the titanic.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Above the law reads these threads. Lawprof doesn't have to become a tipster.

      Delete
  23. ^There still aren't enough jobs for most of the people who graduate.

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  24. @7:49
    There still aren't enough jobs for most of the people who graduate.

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  25. Apologies, my comments were intended for 7:20, not 7:11.

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  26. 7:20:

    What do I think?

    1) I think you are an idiot.

    2) I think that Lawprof should do a post about how tenure facilitated this blog (and arguably other work generated by law professors questioning the value of law school, such as Tamahana's).

    ReplyDelete
  27. Scam blogs and blogs like yours really do make a difference. I recently finished my 1L year at a "top 20" law school. We have yet to receive our grades, but I fully intend to drop out if I am not in the top 1/3 of the class, i.e. employable. I didn't even look for housing for next year because I know that it's more likely than not that I won't be here.

    ReplyDelete
  28. 8:20 AM

    What did you think of the grading system?

    ReplyDelete
  29. I'm meeting with my LS Dean tomorrow to inquire about some of these things... I don't want to name the school, but it's a tier 2 state, and I welcome any suggestions you folks might have. My general approach right now is going to be "what steps are you taking to address these issues?" though I can see already that that may bear few fruits.. Let me know what y'all think!

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  30. ^ not sure what you mean. Like, is it merit based or fair? I don't really care about anything like that, not any more. I just want to know if I stand of chance of getting a job out of this experience.

    ReplyDelete
  31. The above (8:34) was meant for 8:24

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  32. 8:20:

    "I think that Lawprof should do a post about how tenure facilitated this blog (and arguably other work generated by law professors questioning the value of law school, such as Tamahana's)."

    Then just say that. Calling the governor a dildo was completely unnecessary. It makes you look like the idiot.

    7:37:

    Read the rest of the post. Taxing the rich is a part of the deal. State workers and big business should all pay their fair share. Not just one group, brah.

    A state worker's salary should not be justified because food needs to be put on the table. This argument really does not make any sense. I doubt you would go into your boss's office and say you need a raise because Johnny needs braces. Oh wait, most state workers get automatic raises every year anyway.

    It is austerity time people. Even the rich Universities and bloated state budgets cannot survive the cuts. Wisconsin was the start. EVERY bit of all 50 state budgets and the federal budget will be scrutinized and everyone will have to pay their fair share.

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  33. "^ not sure what you mean. Like, is it merit based or fair? I don't really care about anything like that, not any more. I just want to know if I stand of chance of getting a job out of this experience."

    WHY wouldn't you care. This is the apathy that perpetuates the system. I mean, I'm not expecting anyone to burn down a building but I'm a little surprise by your "oh well, it doesn't matter" attitude.

    I'd be pissed if I basically failed out based on some non-meritcratic bs

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  34. Law Prof,

    Thanks for this post. An elite law school asking its pampered, cloistered faculty to contact (for the purposes of reeling in) prospective students is a pretty astounding development. And thanks to the faculty member who tipped you off.

    ReplyDelete
  35. AtheistATLLawyerJune 6, 2012 at 9:13 AM

    In Re: The debate about tenure,

    The problem with tenure is that MOST law professors who receive it abuse it. Granted, I am happy Law Prof has tenure. Without it, this blog would (probably) not exist. Sure, there are a handful of other law professors who use tenure wisely and post/write/argue against the scam.

    What about the 90% of the lazy, entitled, and oblivious law profs with tenure? Should they continue to receive it? The answer is NO. (Hell no, you fucking criminal scammers!!)

    I'll post just about my specific Law School. The professors with tenure where basically WORTHLESS. They did not add value, or help me, or *any* other student for that matter. Yet these poor kids (most of whom are/were completely clueless anyway) subsidized their fat salaries.

    In fact, the J.D. holders now working at starbucks still have not put 2 and 2 together and realize precisely what happened in regards to their victimization.

    Oh thats right, I forgot, these "kids" (and that is what they are, still kids) are sophisticated consumers.

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  36. the best profs i had were adjuncts, all tenured profs like to play favorites which really made me question objectivity of grading esp on full blown issue spotting exams which tenured profs love so fucking much.

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  37. ^you weren't the choosen one.

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  38. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jo4Sszvl70s

    Cryn Johannsen on CNN

    (http://alleducationmatters.blogspot.com/)

    CAMPOS you need to bring this to CNN. This is an election year and given the overall student debt of $1 trillion, the law school portion should be given more television air time.

    IMO, Johannsen could have been a bit more organized. If Campos gets on CNN the law school issue should be linked to loan dischargibility, the overall higher education scam, and the general economy.

    In the latter case, if students have less debt, that means they have more cash to inject/stimulate the economy. i.e. it is in the best interests of EVERYONE to get the money circulating into the economy rather than into government coffers.

    ReplyDelete
  39. 10:23:

    I saw this interview. Johannsen, in front of a national audience, had a chance to talk about returning BK protections to student loans and had a chance to talk about their predatory nature. Instead, she talked about herself, her accomplishments, and the semantics of the word "forgiving" as it pertains to student loans....despite her advising Applebaum to use that particular word when he initially made his proposal.

    What a blown opportunity by someone who was completely disorganized and mumbled the whole time.

    I would have loved that opportunity.

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  40. 1029

    I think, fortunately, there will be more opportunities. $1,000,000,000,000 in student debt will have to receive more than 5 minutes of air time

    ReplyDelete
  41. When I was accepted by a few T4's a couple years back I got phone calls from two. Both were excited to be taking my money and both of the individuals who called were very proud of their fine institutions.

    Of course, this should be expected, as every schmuck who enters law school is job security for these people. Everything comes down to the dollar. The school could be a festering pile of crap and they will still say it's the most amazing place in the world to get your money.

    Yet, a fresh faced 0L, like myself back in the day, is utterly thrilled to be accepted. Hell, I was shaking with delight when I got accepted into law school and I thought everything would be rainbows and kittens from that point on. Now I look back and it was all a very expensive and heart shattering hassle that changed my entire outlook on life. And no, not for the better. At one time my life was a blank canvas full of possibility and excitement. Law school changed all that to fear and resentment.

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  42. This is obviously Michigan, since Bill Miller, who taught Campos (and who he has written about before), is the only faculty member at an elite law school who apparently still talks to him. I bet he's really pleased to see what Campos has become.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You mean an advocate for change in a corrupt system?

      Delete
  43. And what have you become "10:36?"

    Since Bill Miller is a friend of mine I feel it's appropriate to note that my source isn't him.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Bullet points to be made on a television appearance

    1. Tuition has gone 8x the rate of inflation, with law school being the ugliest manifestation due to absolute number of debt *in relation* to terrible employment opportunities
    2. Predatory Greed and especially removal of BK protection has played fundamental role in this crisis, and BK protection should be reinstated to immediately provide a check on scandalous price increases
    3. Allowing debts to be discharged, or forgiveness, should definitely be put forth when we consider the overall ECONOMY, as it allows cash to flow into the public, rather than into the government. This is how you overcome prejudices against lawyers, by focusing on such arguments
    4. Appeal to boomers that their kids are going to be life long slaves if action is not taken.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Excellent post, LawProf. And I must say that I am happy to start to see that this problem has started to become a problem for legal academia instead of just recent grads, whom nobody cared about.

    As it becomes more of a problem for the overall profession instead of just the youngest in the profession, hopefully more attention will shift to this issue and maybe people will start to see the value in thinking up some solutions.

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  46. @10:36 Just sign your comments, Brian.

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  47. Bravo 10:43.

    A few more.

    5. Appeal to Boomers that their kids will not be able to pay the BBer's social security, medicare, nor other social programs because they are jobless and/or in debt.

    6. Appeal to Boomers (and NAR) who want to downsize their homes that the next generation will not be able to buy those homes because of SL debt.

    ReplyDelete
  48. I'm expecting a much bigger backlash against the reform movement to begin. Now that the story has been picked up and admissions are affected- the academics are going to be moved to action.

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  49. The place at which I volunteer (high five later) also has aspiring, future law students come by to get a taste of The Glory Which Is Lawyering. I overheard one say, just the other day, she wanted to go to law school to get into "international law."

    I nearly spit my coffee all over my computer screen.

    ReplyDelete
  50. @10:43:

    BK protections are not the answer, at least not on their own. Wonder why? It is the federal government, not the school, who is your lender.

    If you are going to restore BK protections, it MUST include school risk sharing for defaults for it to make any dent.

    Secondly, it MUST cover federal loans. You'll note the two bills put forth in Congress only cover private loans, not the federal ones. Without BK protection on federal loans, BK does very, very little for most borrowers.

    The downside to allowing for BK on federal loans is that there is a federal cost associated with such a move. Of course, requiring the school to share in the risk for all defaults (not just those that end up in BK court) could offset a good portion of those costs.

    Short of these two important factors, BK will be a big, nasty fight which only provides relief for a very, very limited number of borrowers.

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  51. YOU WERE NEVER promised jobs.

    Businesses will ALWAYS slant/distort stats to favor themselves and attract customers.

    YOU are NOT special.

    The law school scam is NOT special.

    ReplyDelete
  52. @11:11 - I totally agree with the sentiment that consumers should be wary of puffery from businesses.

    But I disagree with the premise that law schools are businesses. They are subsidized by the state for the benefit of its residents.

    Granted, that is a pollyanna view of higher education given today's absurd tuition prices and the gouging of students.

    However, unlike businesses, I believe that law schools - - really any University - - should be held to a higher standard.

    Something closer to a fiduciary relationship than an arm's length relationship.

    ReplyDelete
  53. 7:47: Law students are somewhat special in that they graduate with such large debt loads that the outlet of IBR is not reasonably available to them. Law students are in the top 1-2% of student debt holders. IBR caps loan repayments but allows interest to run. Since the loan amounts are so huge, that interest piles up up up. Now if our hypothetical law student stays on IBR, they are looking at ever increasing loan balances or a severely reduced standard of living because they are spending 15K per year trying to stay in front of the interest accrual. If a common outcome is a 45-50K legal job that basically turns into a 30K job after interest, it's not a very good result. If they don't pay down the interest, their credit is trashed. If they do manage to work themselves into a better position, they now owe and even higher balance. Basically a tax on the young and upwardly mobile.

    tldr; IBR was created for people with 20-40K of student loans.

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  54. They should start giving bonuses to the faculty members who close the most students.

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  55. @11:15 AM


    Its called the BUSINESS of education for a reason. Not only are law schools a business. Elementary schools are a business. The city of Philadelphia is shutting down 40 public schools within this coming year to be replaced with private charter schools.

    ReplyDelete
  56. @ Anonymous @11:15:

    No, private education is a business.

    Public education, on the other hand, is not about generating a profit. The return on investment is in the creation of good citizens. You could spend the rest of today reading about NCLB, the return to the 3 R's, and other like topics. And you'd just be dipping your toe in.

    I recommend this for those that are interested: http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_viewpoints_education_goals/

    ReplyDelete
  57. Hey, BUSINESS guy, that's fantastic that law schools are BUSINESSES, no doubt staffed by hard-ass, go-get 'em closers like yourself who excel at the BUSINESS of BUSINESS.
    So let's take law schools off the government teat, and let them attract paying customers and income on their own.

    ReplyDelete
  58. 10:36- you are either brian leiter, or a brian leiter disciple. you will end up being the roger taney of academia. i will relish your descent into ignominy.

    ReplyDelete
  59. if law school is a business let the law treat as such and provide students with consumer protections.

    law schools, and school in general, get the best of two worlds...

    ReplyDelete
  60. During lunch today, I read a very interesting article in this month’s ABA Journal regarding the previously well-discussed action by several New York Law School alumni charging their alma mater with fraudulent misrepresentation of employment statistics. Although as most readers of this blog know, the suit was dismissed (and is on appeal), I did not know that the litigation recently led Moody’s Investors Service to downgrade its outlook on NYLS from “stable” to “negative.” In this case, Moody’s expressed particular concern over $190 million in new debt NYLS incurred for the recent expansion and renovation of its Manhattan campus.

    Referring to the NYLS suit and similar litigation against other law schools, Moody’s analyst Emily Schwarz said: “The lawsuits are credit negative for the law schools given the potential for reputational damage leading to application and enrollment declines that would pressure tuition revenue. Credit pressure will be most acute at stand-alone law schools that are highly dependent on student charges and have limited diversity in programs or revenue.”

    It seems these suits may be having a real impact – even if in an unforeseen way.

    ReplyDelete
  61. @7:47

    Well, Prof. X, at least you're finally being honest, and admitting that you're involved in a scheme built on misrepresentations and lies. But how long do you honestly think this scheme will last before those funding it (taxpayers) start demanding to know where their money is going?

    ReplyDelete
  62. 12:24 -- I think Moody's Analyst Emily Schwarz said that before the NYLS lawsuit was dismissed. NYLS had negative publicity from a New York Times article prior to the lawsuit, so the lawsuit was largely the tail wagging the dog.

    ReplyDelete
  63. "NYLS had negative publicity from a New York Times article prior to the lawsuit, so the lawsuit was largely the tail wagging the dog."

    NYLS has been plagued with a negative reputation as far back as I got involved in the legal profession over 25 years ago. This isn't a recent phenomenon.

    ReplyDelete
  64. I think Professor Campos and Professor Leiter should engage in a series of sort of modern day Lincoln/Douglas debates.

    After having read many previous posts by LawProf and many of the comments, it all kind of reminds me of when I took an American History course in College, part of which covered the debates and absolutely irreconcilable positions on various issues that led up to the American Civil War.

    The Law school Scam is a hot topic. Student Loan debt is even hotter.

    No negotiation or compromise in sight.

    None of this bodes well for Higher Ed. and America in general.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Leiter playing the Douglas role of Course :)

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  66. LawProf,

    How do you know this wasn't some spoof email account trolling you?

    Any way, if true the LMAO.

    ReplyDelete
  67. With LawProf holding his lapels as to the puling strains of Ken Burns type laborious documentary music.

    Ken Burns is very fond of sappy tinkling pianos too isn't he? Whether he is covering the quotes of Mary Chestnut, or Sherman's march, or a nauseating and sappy tribute to baseball or whatever :)

    With the same old tired and irrelevant academic gang along for the ride that no one really cares to hear from.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idz70hx-WGA

    ReplyDelete
  68. Has anyone here actually convinced an undergraduate student not to go to law school?

    ReplyDelete
  69. 1:57 --

    Tried and failed many times. I've successfully dissuaded several "what's law like" or "is law a fun career" types. There's no changing the minds of the committed though.

    ReplyDelete
  70. All speculation here, but the school in question sounds kinda Michiganesque to me.

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  71. @ 11:11am

    Actually the law school (and higher ed) scam is VERY different than other business scams in critical ways that makes it a WORSE scam than the other scams.

    - If you buy something like a car or Sketchers shoes or whatnot, you actually have consumer protection laws on your side. You DON'T have the same level of protection when buying an education.

    - If you purchase almost anything else on credit, you can discharge it in BK. Students loans are one of the few exceptions to this.

    So it is not true that the student loan scam is no different than other business "scams".

    ReplyDelete
  72. I'm up to 3, 1:57, and enormously proud of it. They weren't going anywhere big, which means I saved 3 lives from the TTT and TT meat grinder. I'm not even a law student, I'm an accounting student who stumbled into this community by chance! Having read these blogs for a while, as soon as they started talking about BS like international law or broke out the 'I'll work really really hard and get into the top 10% of my class' I was ready to stomp those illusions.

    ReplyDelete
  73. 1:57: I have three success stories where I persuaded people not to go. I have dozens where I failed.

    ReplyDelete
  74. 1:57

    I was convinced not to go to law school after a classmate showed me a page on facebook dedicated to showing people how law school will ruin them financially and that there are no jobs, the page is Don't Go to Law School. I'm telling my friends now too so..keep on exposing the scam, word is getting around

    ReplyDelete
  75. The other way this scam is different than a business scam is that lawyers are supposed to have a code of ethics. The fraudulent behavior of schools breaches the ethics that lawyers are supposed to follow. Not to mention the moral obligation that professors have to not mislead or steal or destroy their students.

    ReplyDelete
  76. I meant steal from their students. Ruining a person's financial future is worse than just basic theft, a crime for which people go to prison.

    ReplyDelete
  77. AtheistATLLawyerJune 6, 2012 at 3:00 PM

    Hey "11:34 AM"

    Are you Brian Leiter, or did you just graduate from the TTT University of Arkansas School of Law?

    Law schools are a BUSINESS you say? Did I hear that right? GREAT!!


    THEN LET'S DO AWAY WITH THEIR 501(C)(3) "NON-PROFIT" STATUS. OK? DO WE HAVE A DEAL YOU CORRUPT PIECE OF TRASH?

    ReplyDelete
  78. "Are you Brian Leiter...?"

    An anonymous poster on this site desperately trying to justify the law school scam? There's a 99.9% chance.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Regarding NYLS’s negative Moody’s rating: I’m an economist, not a lawyer, but I’ve worked on enough major corporate financings and restructurings to know that an institution’s cost of debt soars with a negative rating. And, although I appreciate all the talk about how NYLS apparently has had a “bad reputation” for some time, a bad rep and an official market-driven negative credit rating are two very different animals. I don’t know NYLS’s financial particulars, but it seems even with its “bad rep” it had a “stable” credit rating. To fall to “negative” is a very big deal, especially in this credit market, which I assume the school enters on a regular basis to even-out the cash flow bumps common to educational institutions.

    Even if NYLS has sufficient cash to fund current operations and service debt, I’m sure Moody’s (not to mention the school’s lenders and its faculty and other employees) nervously await the results of this year’s admission process. In the absence of a full class, businesses like NYLS – and as many have pointed out the school is, after all, a business – can go poof faster than one can imagine.

    ReplyDelete
  80. If people think that any law school is going to close they need to think again, haven't you heard that Indiana Tech just broke ground on their new law school, this scam will only stop when the federal student loan gravy train is turned off

    ReplyDelete
  81. This is an underrated post. I guess we should commend LawProf for presenting this humiliating story in a relatively classy way.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Here's what happens to your arm if you don't go to law school.

    http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Wig-Theft-Suspect-Bit-Store-Owner-Cops-Police-157512815.html

    Not ONE law school graduate has ever been the victim of a cannibal. To those of you complaining about student loans, how much is that worth to you?

    ReplyDelete
  83. 1:57, I myself decided not to go to law school (a T14) and have heard other people on TLS also choosing not to attend. I can confirm at least one student i know who turned down UVA at sticker this cycle. I also convinced some of my younger undergrad friends to not even bother with law school. I would say this blog was very influential in my own decision not to attend, and has provided me with some key talking points which I use to dissuade other naive young people from going. But you can't save everyone..

    ReplyDelete
  84. It's funny how clueless the regular posters are here. Do you really think that Leiter is the only person who thinks Campos is an assclown?

    ReplyDelete
  85. "THEN LET'S DO AWAY WITH THEIR 501(C)(3) "NON-PROFIT" STATUS. OK? DO WE HAVE A DEAL YOU CORRUPT PIECE OF TRASH?"

    Non profits are run like businesses. Many execs at non profits get paid like private execs. They're non profit in the sense that they dont have stock holders and money earned after exepenses are put back into the business.

    However, non profits still act like businesses and put the bottom like first and generate money anyway they can. Non-profits have missions but often times they become distorted and/or pushed aside do to the fact that the businesses have to make money to survive and grow.

    Lawyers are supposed to be ethical... great, businessmen are supposed to be ethical too.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Is Campos is an "assclown" for exposing the law school scam, then what does that make the law school scammers or their apologists?

    ReplyDelete
  87. As a partner at a NLJ 250 firm, I've forwarded the link to this site to numerous 0Ls and parents of 0Ls. Keep up the great work.

    ReplyDelete
  88. What exactly are the charges against Campos again? The same people who attacked him for blogging anonymously are now too afraid to criticize him under their own names. His critique of law school is sound and the objective evidence bears that out more and more each day. People who resort to calling him an "assclown" should be embarrassed. Just what the fuck are you?

    ReplyDelete
  89. @7:04. Know any UChicago 0Ls? I have some great links to the anonymous postings of one their finest professors.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Thanks for link to Cryn Johannsen's CNN interview. I was surprised having read her blog for sometime that the interview would be so disorganized. But stage freight can happen to the best of us.

    ReplyDelete
  91. ^ Cryn making excuses for her crappy experiences

    ReplyDelete
  92. 1:57:

    I have had a 50/50 success rate. I was able to dissuade one individual from going to law school. (OK - I really didn't dissuade her - rather it was her seeing me after spending $100K on a law degree working for $13,000 a year alongside her as a receptionist and typist that probably did it, but at least I can claim that it was my example that dissuaded her.)

    I was unable to dissuade another individual. He graduates in a year from a really bad school, so it will be interesting to watch what happens there. I can honestly say I have no pity - he was warned.

    There is one last person for whom the verdict is still out. She is a social worker who earns $40 an hour who had the (craziness, temerity, insanity - pick your adjective) to ask me (who makes $13,000 a year, remember?) if I would be happy to talk to her about law school because she was thinking of going. She said she was worried though, because she was afraid of being in a courtroom. I told her that of all the things she had to worry about regarding law school, that wasn't one of them, as if she graduated in the next three years or so, chances were she would never see a courtroom, as few 'lawyers' nowadays even see a courtroom or actually work as a lawyer. I couldn't help but shake my head at her naivete, actually thinking attorneys who go to law school actually get paid attorney jobs. Sometimes I think this movement has come so far. And then, when I see that there are still potential OLs who actually think that a person has a shot in hell of actually practicing law after going to law school - I just shake my head and think, we sure have a long way to go, baby.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Holy shit, listen to this guy COMPLETELY FAIL at explaining the opinion in the NYLS lawsuit.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-l3UUaYXPI

    He says the judge told them that "NYLS is not an employment agency" and that "they may not have jobs for reasons such as their poor bar performance or their personality."

    That's not what the opinion said at all (even Judge Schweitzer knew not to cross that line into assholedom). The opinion said the students could have, but did not, verify the school's false statements.

    What the hell? Why would he make a youtube about an opinion that he did not even read?

    ReplyDelete
  94. I know someone who left a government job earning $80K (supervisor) a year to go to law school. Fast forward 3 years later, this person is working for a solo making $35K a year. Her old job wouldn't take her back at the old position. Oh, she took out $110K to finance the JD. She still believes the law degree will pay off. Oh, and she is 37 years old. Maybe it will pay off when she turns 75. Kids, don't fall for the law school trap.

    ReplyDelete
  95. "I know someone who left a government job earning $80K (supervisor) a year to go to law school. . . . Her old job wouldn't take her back at the old position."

    Wouldn't take her back? What employer wouldn't take a perfectly good employee back? To be fair, it sounds like you know someone who was let go from her government job making $80k, had no options and so went to law school.

    ReplyDelete
  96. "What employer wouldn't take a perfectly good employee back?"

    WTF kind of question is this? How about an employer who had already filled her old position? Or one that questioned her loyalty after leaving for law school?

    And you really think she "had no options" while making 80K working for the government? She sounds like many other victims of a scam perpetuated (apparently now both willingly and eagerly) by those like Leiter.

    ReplyDelete
  97. "I[f] Campos is an "assclown" for exposing the law school scam, then what does that make the law school scammers or their apologists?"

    Well, in one case I know of, an obsessive little freak living out - at the expense of ignorant young adults, as well as the tax paying public- a very fucked-up fantasy of being a "philosopher."

    ReplyDelete
  98. ever seen a picture of leiter? it's a good thing there is such a job as "law professor." i don't mean to be shallow, but there is just no way he ever could have gotten hired in the real world.

    ReplyDelete
  99. 1:57 - I'm two for two convincing potential 0Ls from going to law school. But I had an inside track; they were my two daughters. The normal scenario, liberal arts graduates, substantial undergraduate schools, one a mid level private school and the other a flagship state university. And my special accomplishment, these both were nearly ten years ago. Both found their post graduation jobs dull, uninspiring and not very remunerative. When they were shocked at my lack of support for them I doubled up and said further that because of my love for them I would give them not a penny of support for law school. None. They grumbled and whimpered a bit about my lack of confidence in them. Both ended up back in community college for nursing degrees. One is a successful and happy post-op nurse ($65,000) and the other is moving ahead smartly to graduation. Incidentally the daughter who is still single has independently made a firm rule to never date lawyers. She says that after the initial bluster of the first couple of dates, they are all bitter beaten down cases, living on fantasies or depressed and practicing out of their apartments or parents homes. She also ends up picking up their tab. William Ockham

    ReplyDelete
  100. Bro, I know what you mean. I hate this shallow stuff. But if X wasn't a picture-perfect example of a fat, disgusting, worthless slob member of legal academia, he'd be all over Campos for being "too ugly to be a respected law professor." Just like he's now all over Campos' "scholarship," despite Campos being a tenured professor at a tier 1 law school, and despite X also churning out a bunch of "scholarship" that no one gives a shit about.

    This is how fucked up the situation has become. X has resolved to trolling the internet, from sites like autoadmit to taxprofblog to this particular blog. And yet everyone knows what he's doing. What an inescapable trap that must be for someone like him.

    inb4 "ZOMG THIS ISN'T BRIAN MANY OTHERS THINK CAMPOS IS AN ASSCLOWN TOO."

    ReplyDelete
  101. I beg to differ.

    Two people have emerged as the dominant personalities on this blog: Abraham Lincoln Campos, and the great Philosopher: Judge Douglas Lieter.

    And to quote Lincoln:

    "Every sentiment Leiter utters discards the idea that there is anything wrong with Student Loan Debt Slavery!"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK4YTY9DL4I

    ReplyDelete
  102. Oh, please! Comparing race-based, inheritable, chattel slavery to law school debt. Just stop. The critique can be made without that kind of exaggeration.

    ReplyDelete
  103. But exaggerating is so much fun!

    BTW, Alec Baldwin needs to take better care of himself. I suspect drinking is the culprit, which is a shame.

    I once heard that if an alcoholic doesn;t quit by age 40 it is all over and they will never quit.

    Take heed, because alcoholism is not altogether unknown to plague the legal profession.

    Smiles go a long way to curing that disease.

    As Mr. O'Rourke used to say to the lovely hula girls: "Smiles everyone! Smiles!"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwaEydIpS0E

    I wish I could spend a few days on Fantasy Island and pretend I had no Student Loan Debt.

    Sigh!!

    ReplyDelete
  104. In Re Alcoholism:

    (approx quote)

    "I could do yoga, or something, but I don't have a yoga class in my freezer."

    - Pete Holmes.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Yeah, exaggerating using black people's history is so fun...

    ReplyDelete
  106. Today's Doonsbury is worth looking at

    MacK

    ReplyDelete
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